Enemies of Liberty are ruthless. To own your Liberty, you'd better come harder than your enemies..

Friday, March 16, 2012

III: Wyoming Pioneer Concept

Wyoming Sentiment: What sort of reception might we find if we pioneer into your State and make a footprint? I open this to current Wyoming residents and anyone who may have insight on the topic. For those of you who know - was there backlash when FreeState Wyoming ventured into the state? How much? Would any annoyance be overcome with job opportunities? I'm not worried about any Liberal folks - we're looking to make their voice meaningless, anyway. But what about the typical Wyoming resident, rancher, shop owner, et cetera? This is an aspect I hadn't considered.


I've added a poll in the upper right of the page about a physical III Community. Please take a second and hit what applies to you. This is merely to determine if this is a topic I should continue developing. Many people across the Liberty Movement find the idea of "Resilient Communities" and similar concepts appealing.

For those who have been engaged in the discussion about a III Community, I'm going to post a comment below from Chad, who is a tax professional who did us the kindness of looking into a few basics of a firearms company that would serve as the core revenue stream to support such an effort.

I have my eye on a firearms manufacturing firm for several reasons. First, I want to do it. Second, it would annoy our Federal Masters. Third, it is a serious business with the potential to accomplish our goal, which is to build an industry around which a serious community can be supported. Fourth, those of us who think a serious SHTF scenario is imminent, and a serious disruption of the Status Quo is coming at us like a freight train, would be well-served by having as an asset for our ideology a working firearms factory and complementary ammo facility.

Did mention that I want to do it?

As you'll see by the work Chad submitted, the legal hurdles and business logistics are not insignificant.

As anyone who ever went through a particular US Army program has heard before: I won't do it for you, but I'll do it with you.

Mrs. Kerodin and I researched this effort about 2-2.5 years ago. Timing is everything, and I think the time for this idea is maturing.

So, let's recap a bit. Nothing is carved in stone, but I think the way many of us are leaning is: A Wyoming community in a low-population area of Sublette or Fremont counties where we can go in and set up shop. Regardless of how we end up securing capital, I think we all agree that the community is open to any serious Liberty advocate. Your financial situation does not matter to me. Many folks have the resources to sell what they have and move into the area, buy a bit of land or a house. As long as there is income potential, most folks can get there simply by taking the decision.

For folks who do not have such security (I don't know about you, but I've had my arse handed to me financially since about 2008), my plan includes the company purchasing a moderate chunk of land that has an assortment of housing options available. We could set aside a piece of ground for trailer and RV hook-ups. We could drag in a small number of mobile homes or pre-fabs. We could drag in a number of pre-fab cabins in another area. We could build up a dorm environment. Most of these things are relatively inexpensive.

The trade-off for folks who choose dorm life as a starting point, for instance, would receive lower wages to compensate. You get the idea. We will provide a way for ANYONE who is serious about Liberty and SERIOUS about working to improve their lives.

If you are an FFL, gun builder, machinist already, and willing to go through the hassle of getting your FFL 7, and living in such a community appeals to you, please let me know quietly. I'd like to get a sense of how much talent we have already, and how much we'll have to hire-in. All gunsmiths/Armorers must be willing to teach their craft to the others in the company.

Do you have the skills to be handed a firearm, take it apart, copy it and build a fresh one from all new parts (of course, given the proper tools in the shop)? We are going to need at least a few such men & women to get started properly.

I know we have an eclectic group of people from truck drivers to accountants to physicians to help round out a community, and ply their crafts while working with the firearms company. Shipments need truckers (I hope). A community will need a medical professional, et cetera.

I would even consider Class II FFL unless it really hampers getting the operation running. Such a thing could be rolled in later.

To have a chance, we've discussed start-up capital. To survive, the revenue stream would have to be adequate. The payroll needed to make sure everyone can live and improve their lives is not insignificant even for a small community.

That means the company will have to hit the ground running, rather than starting as a small boutique shop and adding a new firearm every few years to expand.

The company will define itself (make that all-important first impression) when the doors open for business by the initial offering of weapons and the quality of those weapons. Here is a list of firearms I think should be ready for production the day we open our doors for business, ready to ship to gun shops:


Our "Signature" line:

A basic 1911 (God's Pistol) (.45 ACP)
An upper-end 1911 with the bells & whistles (.45 ACP)
A Browning Hi Power clone (9mm)
A Jeff Cooper Scout Rifle (.308)
A .50 BMG Rifle
An AR platform with multiple caliber options (rifle & pistol calibers)
A pocket revolver for CQB in .357 (Stainless Steel)
A .22 semi-auto pistol suitable as an all-purpose tool, from hitting rabbits to bipeds.

2 unique handguns that take us out of the tactical genre that help set us apart from other manufacturers. I'll reveal those pieces once we have a shop and begin building inventory (before opening for sales) One is a .50 caliber hand cannon with hunting applications.


If the right opportunity presented, we could even consider the purchase of an existing company with their infrastructure.

What I'd like to know is: What would you consider as an essential addition to our opening day line of firearms?

You'll notice everything I have suggested is steel - no plastics. Not because I have an aversion to plastics (I do prefer steel, but that's not the reason). It is simply that tooling for a plastic product line requires different equipment, skills and infrastructure.

From a marketing perspective, we could offer Gun Shops a deal on a package of our entire line to get product on their shelves. If we have the capital, we can even offer credit terms for better/bigger shops.


Below is the comment from Chad, on this thread.


I have briefly looked at Wyoming law and I didn't find any excise taxes at the state level. They were mostly concerned with alcohol and tobacco. Wyoming does have sales tax of 4% with a county option of 1%. They also have property tax, but it is assessed on 9.5% of the value of the property. For ex. you have a 100,000 piece of property, you will take this times 9.5% to get $9,500. Then to get the tax, take the $9,500 times the tax rate (a maximum of 12%) which is $1,140. This seems high, but Wyoming has to fill the coffers somehow. As you are aware, no individual or business income taxes. Which is good.

I also briefly looked at the FAET laws. Man, what a quagmire that is. You have the tax of 10% for each handgun and 11% for each rifle, shotgun or ammo you manufacture. On top of that, in another area, the Company has to pay a tax of $200 per weapon, a flat tax. To go further, there is a $1,000 a year per location "occupation" tax. So three plants, $3,000. This is on top of gaining the approval for each location. The company has an annual filing with the Secretary of each Internal Revenue District in which business is carried.

In essence, forms upon forms upon taxes. I have just scratched the surface on this issue and regulations on firearms manufacture are abundant.

If this were to ever come closer to reality it would be wise to map this whole area out so you don't step in any holes from the get go.

I know the view I just gave is more like 80,000 feet up vs. 40,000. I will need more time to get down there. My job right now is consuming most of my time.

I will say this though, with the complexity and the legal hurdles, I would expect the best business format to do this would be a C corporation. This will go a long way to insulating the owners of the company. Also, there is a lot of talk in my profession about a real possibility for C corporation tax rates going down while individual rates go up.

As much as it sucks paying any tax, to not pay the tribute will end this not long after it begins.


Thank you, Chad. That is exactly the thumbnail we needed.



  1. Not to make an issue of it, but if there is a flat tax of $200 per weapon, how do companies such as Marlin, Savage, H&R, etc. sell .22 rifles for less than $200? Or is it only certain weapons for which there is a flat tax of $200, such as 50 BMG or AR-15 rifles?

    I don't really need to know the answer, just curious if someone happens to know.

  2. Awfully damn cold in WY.

    Still, Buford WY seems strangely attractive to me...

  3. How about Arizona?

  4. Sam,

    On the subject of what kind of welcome we might get, I can only offer an opinion and an observation: I can't help but think that the average rancher, shop owner, blue collar worker (welder, trucker, roustabout, etc.) would welcome more conservative folks moving into the state, as opposed to more California liberals. Gun-loving Constitutionalists would - I think - be seen as a plus. In some of the other states I have lived in - California way up at Yreka, Oregon down south near Grants Pass - the majority of the rural, country folk were conservative, but they got overruled by the mob of liberals in the big cities. So more conservatives, especially if they were able to take over a town and/or county, would be appreciated, not resented, since we wouldn't be there to try to change their way of life, but allow them to live as they saw fit.

    The observation was from contacting the Hot Springs County Treasurer in Thermopolis, Mickeyjean Ford. I was seeking info on becoming a Wyoming resident, and she spent about forty minutes filling me in on the area, the benefits of living in Wyoming, how to obtain residency, and a lot of other useful info. She was supportive of us becoming new residents, especially after we let her know we weren't looking to come into the state and try to Californicate it, just to find some rural property where we could live and mind or own business.

    We then spoke with some ladies in the County Clerk's office, and they were as friendly and helpful as Mickeyjean. I don't know if we will find that in Lander as well, but I _do_ know the librarian at the new Lander Public library was every bit as pleasant, open and helpful. I think we are going to like it there when we move up next week from here in St George.

    I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone into moving there, simply giving my impression of the folks we dealt with when we spent ten days roaming around through parts of the state.

  5. On the Free State Wyoming web site, the comment was something like "we came here because we liked the way it already was, not to change it". That being the case, they apparently fit in well with the locals. I think the type of people who would make this move are the type that would make good neighbors and probably be welcome. It would be good to have some locals comment, however.

    For the manufacturing, you might consider setting up a system of (local) subcontractors to make parts. Given modern cnc systems and good quality control there shouldn't be any product problems. Keeping the number of actual company employees low helps because, as I understand it, there are government requirements that kick in when you have a larger number of employees. This would also give a more distributed, resilient physical and legal target for those who might want to interfere with the project. The company itself would maybe only handle the serial numbered parts and the final assembly, shipping and sales. Not saying this would be the best way to go, just wanted to get the idea out there for consideration.

  6. While I own guns and know how to take care of them and am constantly working on improving my skill with them, I am far from being knowledgeable enough to comment on the gun line. I will leave that to those of you who do.

    Here's a thought, now I know that you seem to be set on Wyo. K, but just for S&G what about looking into Mont. & Idaho's gun production laws? I mean, we're still in the "what if" stage, so what would it hurt? If there are certain aspects of those states that we don't like, but the gun production laws are better, we could, as a block of citizens, perhaps change what we don't like...just some "not fully caffeinated yet" thoughts.
    Miss V
    PS It's way later out here that 10:35 and it is Sat so I slept in to 6:45 ;)

  7. Please dont come!!! I was born and raised in Wyoming and we stay here for a reason. First we had all the "Californicators" who couldnt hack it and left. Leave us alone!! Why dont you just fix the place you live in. Argghhh.There is absolutely nothing that angers me more. Go to Utah. They will welcome you there.

    1. For starters because we are overwhelmened by liberals, welfare jockies, crooked politicians and illegals, too name a few. The folks here are hard working people who want to live with as much freedom as is possible. Don't think there are too many dope smokin' hippie welfare types. However I wounder at your statement and if you really are in Wyoming or just being a troll. If a group of folks wanted to move here to NY and start a community I'd be welcoming, but, I do live in the #2 most facist state in the union, so It would not be possible.



  8. Folks: Thanks to all for weighing-in.

    I am wide open to location suggestions, since we are really at the "What if..." stage. Here's why I have settled on Wyoming thus far: Gun laws for residents are among the best in the republic. They have the Federal Firearms Act and they took it one step further than any other state by adding teeth to their law and threatening Feds who interfere with Wyoming residents with arrest and conviction.

    Several states have FFA, but none have gone as far as Wyoming.

    Reason 2 for Wyoming: It is a very sparsely populated state, and even a relatively small community, especially one founded on an industrial base, could make a political difference. Add the fact that many in the state already share many of our values, and you have a strong set of circumstances that argue for Wyoming.

    Geography & Climate: The mountain areas are, by all accounts, beautiful, rugged, filled with big game (as is the rest of the state) and in any SHTF scenario would offer a good defensive position against any Hordes that actually happen to make it that far. Of course, FedGov Hordes with drones and .mil assets are indefensible, realistically, but we face that reality anywhere.

    All of that said: Montana and several other states offer favorable firearms laws. Other places are, subjectively, "prettier" and perhaps not as rugged. The trade-off is population and the ability to make as big a splash with a small community. But that should not be a dealbreaker.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, my biggest *sigh* comes from the fact that all of these states (and all states even remotely suitable for our goals except Alaska) are landlocked, keeping this water-guy away from deep salt water.

    Alaska, specifically Kodiak Island, would be my #1 Heaven-on-Earth location for this project. And while we could make a political impact on the island, the politics of the State would be beyond our ability to shift given population, trendlines, and the fact that their primary revenue stream is oil. I also think the number of people willing to engage in the project would drop significantly if I were to plop a gun factory on Kodiak.

    All that having been said: I am still open to discussion on it, folks. Keep in mind our goals: Gun-friendly state, low population for the ability to make a difference in politics, a good, strong, safe location away from the dying Hordes that may swarm outward from major metro areas, into suburbs, and then beyond as the nanny-state dies.

    Here's a tidbit from my home life: Mrs. Kerodin is not a fan of the cold. I kid you not the love of my life has been seen in July in DC (which is a swamp that often runs in the 90's with 70-80% humidity) in fluffy winter socks to keep her feet warm. She'd prefer that Hawaii had good gun laws and politics. ;) But she is a Liberty-gal first and foremost, and will go anywhere so long as the view is magnificent and I can keep the heat running.

    Any ideas?


  9. RegtT: Thanks for the insights. I think your observations are dead-on. In my life experiences anyone with similar values get along just fine. Since most of folks are not -in-your-face personalities to begin with, and embrace the live & let live lifestyle, I suspect we'll do just fine in almost any rural space.

    And if we make a few Liberals move out, even better. ;)

    About the $200 per weapon fee - I am pretty sure that applies only to specific classes of firearms, certainly not the average handguns and mouseguns. But we'll need clarification at some point.

    DukkButt: Absolutely correct about the business model. Especially in the beginning we'd be "good neighbors" and use local business to make many pieces/parts that are in their line of business. I think we'd focus on the frames and most crucial "big chunks" of the various arms, while letting other shops build parts for us so that most of our job will be assembly, fit and finish.

    Sales and marketing will be the biggest challenge once we have quality products being produced. Gun Shops don't always like to spend on product that hasn't been around a while. But we can get over that hump.



  10. Just to throw a few more thoughts out there: I checked out Montana, and there are simply too many liberals who live there and control the state through their higher numbers in places like Missoula, Helena, Bozeman, etc. Too many Californians have already settled there and have already made changes favoring liberal values, like environmental regulations on the streamsides, lakes, "wetlands", etc.

    Too many people there already to think you could make any difference at all politically. I mean look at who they keep electing for their Senators- a couple of elite Democrats who love Obama, Obamacare, the Patriot Act, NDAA, and never saw a law they didn't like (unless it gave them less control over the "peons").

    If simply having a gun manufacturing company was your goal, you could probably do that as well in Montana or Idaho. If freedom is your goal, with the business simply being created to make it viable for a bunch of people (as well as having some fun making a worthwhile product line), then I think not.

    My wife is a "lizard", too ("lizards" love the heat, "penguins" such as myself prefer it cool) but she would rather live where we can choose our neighbors and have a rural lifestyle, in spite of the climate. We own 80 acres in Northern California way in the boonies, but can't live there because of the laws and the politics (yes, the cops and the Feds roam that area at will in 4 wheelers and helicopters because some folks choose to grow things they don't approve of. There is no peace up there if you are a freedom oriented gun owner, with checkpoints in many places, so we let her adult children use the land, instead).

    Wyoming looks like it might work for us, so we will give it a try.

  11. A place (any place) where liberty minded folks gather in a central spot, announce their intentions, and hope to live as free men make easy pickings for the enemies of liberty. They will be painted as nut jobs... The 97% percent will agree and understand that they need to be "dealt with". Learn the lessons of WACO. Maintain OPSEC until such time that the system eats itself... At that time the reset button will be hit and the enemies of liberty will be the one ripe for the picking...

    Rinse and repeat

  12. Kinda late to the party here, but is there a discussion somewhere listing the reasons for choosing the specific area outlined above? The FSW folks started with a focus on the NE corner of the state. Given several factors (decent tree/forest areas, distance from Kalifornia influenced areas, existing - though small - concentration of like minded folks, etc.), it would seem more natural to go towards Crook, Weston, and maybe Campbell counties. Just wondering. FWIW the Wind River Canyon area near Thermopolis is just gorgeous, though.

    Atlas Shrug

  13. This was submitted by an Anonymous Patriot. He asked that I redact a bit of personal information, so I am posting on his behalf:

    I will add my two cents on starting a manufacturing co from scratch. To do what you have proposed wil require money money money. The equipment required to produce guns at a competive price will be just a start, here are just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:
    cnc mill
    cnc lathe
    gun drill
    broach tool and cutter grinder mills for tooling
    lathe for tooling
    EDM equipment both wire and consumable eletrode
    sheet metal forming equipment for clips and magazines presses for the same you will also need CAD/CAM software for engineering inspection tools and possibly CAI software

    You will also need a chemical process line. This is just a start as you will also need the personel to operate these tools. Do not forget the need for local industrial support from cutting tools to replacement parts for your equipment, being able to get things tomorrow is just fine until you need it today.

    Add to this facilites with the necessary utilites and this is just a start adding these things up I think the start up capital would be quite daunting. I am not trying to say you shouldn't do this, it actually sounds great but to be sucessful these things need to be addressed before anyone packs up and moves to Wy.

    Since I do not know you or you me this doesen't mean much but just for the record these are things I deal with every day as I have been involved with a start up manufacturing company for the last five years. I also expect that you will have lots of conflict with your personel most of the people I know in the shooting world have very strong opinions about how things need to be done and It will take a very strong and talented leader to keep things moving in a positive direction.

  14. Beter option might be to not open as a manufacturer but as a gunsmith operation.
    Guns shipped to you for rework only. Offer specific packages that you do for specific guns and only work on those.
    so forth.
    Legal hurdles will be lower to get into that level of operation. start up costs in terms of equipment and facilities will be lower as well


  15. someone above mentioned keeping employee numbers low to start out. I was employed by a small company in AZ a few years back and once we hit 25 employees the Equal opportunity laws and other junk kicked in and our whole world changed. Not saying EO is bad, but all the new rules made it a royal pain to ensure everything was compliant.

  16. You'd expect a warm welcome. The terrain and vantage points are rugged and treaterous, but will provide excellent cover in the wilderness.

    Winters are exceptionally harsh and cold, but preperation can easily counteract this.

    Rocket City (local nickname for my resident town) is full of allies as well.

  17. How do I get ahold of someone in central wyoming


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