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Some folks have made it clear they'd have handled the situation differently than did Trainer when he was approached by LEO.
Fair enough. But, consider this: Would you really rather they came heavy at 0430 when you are in bed with your wife and the kids are scattered around the house in different bedrooms?
Do not be afraid to look your enemies in the eye at CQB range, folks. If they simply want to talk, why not talk? Why remove that option from the table and force them into tactical gear when all they really want to do at this time is talk to you?
I have direct experience that may be relevant.
It has been my direct experience that when FedGov (especially) comes to you in such a manner, with empty hands and in a sport coat, they are truly offering you a warning and an opportunity to avoid something that may be worse.
The Feds are not in the habit of telling you that they are going to sneak up on you.
If you run a group, or are part of a "Patriot Group" and you are peacefully approached by LEO, it would be my immediate suspicion that FedGov has “something” on someone in your sphere of influence. It may be aggressive rhetoric, it may be Google searches for bad things on the net, it could be an attempt to buy something prohibited, it could even be so severe as one of your men (or someone they hold dear) has been pinched and is flipping to earn a plea, and will say almost anything to get that plea.
While it could also simply be a Psyop from FedGov to start dissension in your ranks, I tend to dismiss this option.
As I say: I have personal experience that when they come to you and talk, it is because they have taken the decision to try to avoid a confrontation. There “are” some folks on the “Other Side” with a conscience, or at least with an agenda that does not include flashbangs.
Look hard at your people and the people about whom they care. If you get a whiff, a simple tingle of doubt whispering to your brain about anyone, cut them out or at least compartmentalize them.
Not that you haven’t already played these realities over in your mind a thousand times, but I also know that as Humans we tend to over-ride our instincts when it comes to people who are close to us. We try to explain away “little things” that in retrospect you may recognize as warning signs.
Never forget: As easily as they coordinated "Interviews" with Trainer and his crew, they could have coordinated tactical raids at each location at 0430. If that is what they wanted, they'd have done it.
The self-aggrandizing rhetoric from Sipsey on this one surprises even me in its hubris. MBV wants credit for FedGov talking to Trainer, because MBV is such the threat. I think the evidence is overwhelming and demonstrated that the last one to be eaten in the Patriot Community will be Mike.
Use logic and reason, folks: If FedGov planned to use Trainer and his group as a cheap media event for political reasons, they'd have gone for Shock & Awe, not discreet interviews.
Kerodin
III
Sam,
ReplyDeleteThe Che kool aid guzzlers are far too stupid to understand what you just said. Let them go down...... why help them?
Bill Nye
Bill: Wouldn't it be great if all the asshole Patriots could meet the asshole LEO so there was no collateral damage?
DeleteSomeone I still respect said: Each of us must find our own way to Heaven or Hell and he is right, as are you. All we can do is offer the truth and let folks live or die by the decisions they take.
Stay safe.
K
I know nothing about this, nor about Trainer, other than the posts I have read written by him. Based on those alone - how he writes, how he expresses his thoughts and beliefs, and what he has actually said - I believe him to be a rational and reasonable man, and I would tend to believe his side first in anything involving him.
ReplyDeleteReg: My experience has been the same. I never knew his role in MPA (I never go looking for details on folks), heck, I admit I have never heard of MPA until now.
DeleteTrainer has done his best to remain objective and even though he and I have bumped heads (We disagree intellectually on a few nuanced points, and he "always" keeps a cooler head than do I when I have a kerfluffle with others) if he called for aid, I'd drive to Michigan.
I can't say I'd do that for everyone.
K
It has been my direct experience that when FedGov (especially) comes to you in such a manner, with empty hands and in a sport coat, they are truly offering you a warning and an opportunity to avoid something that may be worse.
ReplyDeletePoint well made and posted.
Thanks, Brock. Keep me in the loop if you decide to host another PatCom this fall. You have a good, strong cluster of Patriots in your area (yourself included) that I'd like to meet.
DeleteHad a very good interaction with NCRenegade and his son, and there are several others worth knowing.
K
Some thoughts of my own as I mull this over...
ReplyDeleteIf they screw up during the interview, you might get more information out of them than they intended to let out too. Provided you don't do anything foolish, you may well be granting them the opportunity to do so themselves (people screw up, try to make sure it's other people). No matter whether you believe in God or luck, if your best hope of survival involves the action of either, your odds improve drastically in a situation where weapons aren't as likely to discharge in your direction.
And you never know. That LEO that you are talking to might just have seen something that has changed his mind about his career. He may be desperately hoping inside that you'll be an asshole, and validate his choice of remaining a law enforcement officer. What happens if you don't? Look at it this way, if you behave in such a way that it reduces his desire to shoot you (this doesn't mean cowardice), if things ever do go nasty, his hesitation may save your life. And between now and whatever happens, some nonzero percentage of LEO's will see what's happening and find themselves disgusted with it. And it might well be the guy sitting right across the table from you in your interview. You never know - stranger things have happened. Regardless, it would be a piss poor way to start going buckle to buckle with the feds, only to find out that they got you confused with some wanker who has the same name and is wanted for selling mattresses without the little tags on them or something. At least, that would be my luck.
WIII
WIII: Absolutely! The Intel opportunity is there, as well as the potential to have a meeting of minds.
DeleteThe moment we refuse to talk, we take many, many options off the table for both sides.
I might even suggest that Trainer, as Point Man for his group, had an obligation to meet with LEO as part of his responsibility for his group. I'd hold that even if he expected a takedown in that private meeting, he carried the same obligation as Leader.
It takes balls to knowingly and willingly walk into a room with armed men who may mean you harm, and Trainer walked in that room.
K
Mr. K,
DeleteI disagree with your thought that Mr. Trainer had an obligation to the Feds. Damn....those bastards WORK FOR US ! Not one American has any obligation to a .gov agent, especially FED .gov.
Good Lord man....have you disregarded the BoR, the 4th Amendment ?
"Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you....".
DAN III
Pennsylvaniap
Mr. K,
DeleteOne more thing....it would have taken BIGGER balls for Mr. Trainer to have told the FED .gov weasels to "GO FUCK YOURSELF !".
At what point do we stop bending over ?
BTW, no disrespect to Mr. Trainer.
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Dan: He did not owe the Feds the conversation, he owed it to his men in the MPA.
DeleteThey look to him for Leadership, and he'd have lost an opportunity for Intel gathering if he refused, and perhaps missed an opportunity to protect his men.
K
Mr. K,
DeleteWith all due respect I suggest you review Mr. Trainer's response to my query of him @ WRSA. Re: his comments to me on 22 JUN 12 @ 0611.
Speaking to .gov agents is not protecting anyone. Rather one is compromising those he cares for and is responsible for.
Again....say nothing other than to ask for a warrant.
We are in a war of our government against our freedom and liberty.
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Good points K, worthy of contemplation ...of course, we are really not too far from "he went in for a interview, nobody knows where he is now"....logical progression.
ReplyDeleteThat's a fact. We'll only know when that day arrives by the absence of people, rather than a Press Release. Everyone takes a risk when choosing Door A or Door B.
DeleteK
All....
ReplyDeleteIt has been my experience that when approached by a .gov agent with badge and gun, to tell said individual to go get a warrant. They are not approaching you to buy you dinner for having paid one's taxes on time. They are fishing....fishing without providing you any opportunity of legal protection.
There are few assholes with a badge and gun I trust. Actually, there is only one I trust.
It is simple....four simple words...."go get a warrant !".
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Thanks to all for the constructive criticism and support.
ReplyDelete