Enemies of Liberty are ruthless. To own your Liberty, you'd better come harder than your enemies..

Monday, December 9, 2013

Citadel Pilots

Citadel Pilots: Can you give me an idea of the costs involved with flying operators out of St. Maries to small strips out in other parts of CONUS?  I know there are many variables, so create 1-3 scenarios that are most likely and go from there.

Here are a couple of variables:  How much weight can the average small plane carry?  (I know, big variables there.)  What is the average range before you need to set down and refuel?  What are the rules for TSA/.gov inspecting payload?

I assume each of you intend to bring your own craft to St. Maries - what would be prudent for the Citadel to purchase if routine operations included flying out to help Patriots in far-off hot-spots?

If we have an assortment of prop-driven planes and maybe even a helicopter, is there any modification we can make that will neutralize local air assets (obviously not fighter planes - but LEO observation craft)?

Should we look into the possibility of purchasing an old fighter jet - say a Phantom or an old prop - fighter?  Can we do anything realistic with them?  Remember, this is WRoL and SHTF, assuming FedGov is busy elsewhere and we are on our own.

What sort of helicopter should the Citadel consider buying for the same purpose?  I like the Jolly Green Giant, but reality and budgets are a bitch.

Also, if a one-man operator decided to ask you to deliver him to an AO with a 60# kit and a 300# motorcycle so he could run a caper, is this do-able?

Educate us, please.



  1. Choppers are extremely high maintenance, not just to meet current fed 'safety' regs (not around if SHTF), but to to keep them in safe and effective condition for ops. I've owned and operated some for many years, they are not cheap to maintain or operate. There's a reason they're affectionately called a loose collection of a million parts with the aerodynamics of a grad piano.

    As far as your question about inspections, multiple agencies have the power to impound -- temporarily or permanently -- any aircraft in the US and search it for contraband. If you refuse to submit to an inspection they'll just impound the bird until they are satisfied (including a lot of revenge factor).

    Additionally, keep in mind that aircraft are easy to track by satellite and/or drones. While you may not have those to contend with (or mobile andor stationary radar) in a SHTF scenario by .gov, you would still have to be cognizant of the fact that sophisticated private militias -- many will be formed by 'former' military personnel with black market connections or outright theft -- will be utilizing a lot of the modern detection technology in their efforts to survive and control regional areas.

  2. Antique A/C-FAA is highly critical of retired military jet A/C of any nationality in private hands, also incredibly labor/money intensive. Just slightly less so with old piston engines. Look towards what bush pilots around the world drive, you'll begin to see the art of the possible. Av gas is harder and harder to find, ergo-
    High wing, turboprop, large wheels, STOL performance, cargo doors. Just going on safari....
    Performance and range get complicated, with climactic factors. Again, take a look at what bush drivers are using. As stated above, easy to track, easy to knock down, better have an airtight alibi.

  3. Look into a de Havilland Twin Otter. Short take off and landing and a reputation of being very rugged. Used as a bush plane all over the world. I'm not a pilot or aircraft mechanic but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


  4. Thanks everyone for the advice to stay away from anything .mil - I can see many reasons to do so.

    So lets focus on the things we can do with standard civvie small craft - from recon to getting into and out of hotspots, to rescue ops... what should the Citadel make it a point to cache for a SHTF world when parts and fuel will be scarce.

  5. Where are you guys on kits/experimentals? I am a BIG fan of the Seawind. I can see small helicopters as a requirements in Benewah, especially with Patriots spread all over the county. Helicopters may be the best solution for intra-county ops, with planes to get us beyond the county for special ops.

    Even experimental kits are not cheap, but they are far cheaper than buying a complete rig. And I know we've got plenty of folks with the skills to put kits together safely.

    This is something my Uncle was into for a long time, so I have confidence in the rigs.

    How hard is training-up though to fly? Remember we have the lake and river for amphib-ops.

  6. Been looking at used Cessna-type craft - are the $30-$40k used planes worth buying?

    1. Pilots: I will begin with a lack of humility - I have always been good at learning to do X or Y more quickly that people around me, both mental and physical.

      That said: In a WRoL/SHTF scenario, how many times do you think it would take you to take me up in a Cassna with you until I learn to fly, land and take-off. I'm not talking about the ability to fly acrobatics - I am talking about the ability to leave X, get the plane safely airborne, fly to Y and land safely, and then return home.

      Now: How long would it take to add a Seawind to the mix (water landing and take off capability, forget limiting it to the Seawind)

      Finally: Same skillset for a small, 2-4 passenger helo?

      I think it is going to be critical to be able to get across the county in a hurry to back up our allies in case of marauders.

      Feel free to add any caveats you think are relevant.


    2. BTW: Screw the books and minimum hours as regulated by FAA, et cetera - the question is how long does it take to learn to fly.

  7. I've taught people to fly single engine planes -- after they achieved a minimum level of understanding in aerodynamics (3 to 5 hours reading or discussion) -- locally from point A to point B safely in "perfect" conditions in around 6 to 8 hours (to safely operate STOLS or amphibs, add another 16 to 24 hours). Flying cross country or in less than ideal conditions takes months, if not years of experience. Flying in a manner to avoid detection is even longer. Unlike a car you can't just stop and reconsider your actions or options -- everything is dependent on a fluid coordination of the present and future combination of atmospheric conditions, pilot knowledge -- response to conditions and navigation -- and instincts and mechanical condition and ability of the aircraft.

    Choppers are an entirely different can of worms, It requires a different concept of aerodynamics and skill set of mechanics -- both physical and machine. Some very accomplished fixed wing pilots are unable to make the transition due to the differences (many good pilots are as comfortable in either a chopper or fixed wing). To safely fly a chopper even locally, look to invest 30 to 40 hours at a very minimum, and a strong sense of prayer to assist you.

    In both cases, as Adam noted above, whether you have .gov looking for you, or a sophisticated air experienced militia, both types of aircraft are basically sitting ducks. They would be somewhat more effective going against roving bands of entitlement minded raiders seeking to conquer by brute force, but most likely a losing proposition going against the other two mentioned above. Plus you are going to have to gather and maintain a rather large supply of parts along with aviation fuel -- neither of which are going to be readily available when the SHTF.

    If you're looking for recon ability, look toward ultralights -- you can basically build them with stuff from a salvage yard and power them with large lawnmower engines to small auto salvage engines. Such aircraft have been used successfully to achieve relatively stealth insertion/reconnaissance deep behind enemy lines.

  8. In So. Am., .mil used a Twin Otter or King Air for all-around utility. Aerial delivery for pax and the equipment (or prepositioned heavy stuff) and refueled someplace else if needed for discretion. We could squeeze a 250cc bike in a Cessna 182 with 1 pax but needed to land to deliver it, or the pax could jump. 182's are about $35k-$45k and learn to jump with a pack in about three weeks for about $5-6k.

    1. In keeping with K's desire to 'expedite' learning and cost curves, an experienced jumper can teach a determined, and well conditioned novice to jump, even with pack in 3 or 4 days.

      I learned to fly (fixed wing) and skydive back in the early '60s while in high school at a local municipal airport (even had a paved runway). I learned to fly from the owner of the airport and how to skydive from his daughter who I was dating at the age of 16. While they had licensing laws for both piloting and diving they weren't enforced very regularly unless there was an accident. I made over a hundred jumps and logged 150+ hours of solo flight time before I graduated high school.

      If you know an experienced jumper -- preferably .mil trained -- and have access to a plane, you can probably outfit yourself and learn to efficiently jump for a couple of grand, including the cost of fuel..

    2. Anything is possible but safely jumping a pack and landing under varied conditions (i.e., night) within the general area of a target will require more than 4 days (even if you could get on 10 training jumps per day). There is also no way you are going to "outfit" and "efficiently jump" for what you mentioned. Maybe in the 60's. Not now.

    3. Oh I don't know about that. I taught HALO until 6 years ago and still consult with 2 groups. As far as outfitting, there is a plethora of used equipment available, usually fairly cheap -- unless you want all of the best of modern equipment and accessories. You'd be surprised at how many "macho" guys with more money than brains buy the full boat of equipment only to either get bored with it soon or have a bad jump and decide it's not the best hobby to indulge in.

  9. Depending on what you are trying to do, as stated above most of the aircraft that are used for bush planes will provide varying degrees of utility. One aircraft to consider as more of a heavy hauler is the Russian AN-2, they will burn a lot of gas and oil(round engine), but can carry 12 pax, haul lots of stuff and go very slow. Check out the Polish version. Good luck


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